Demonic Inuyasha
MAN WITH THE GOLDEN CHALICE
Registered: 11-2004
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
 Well then LG, my question is answered and my fears are washed away 
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Is not lost in the dark, only lost in thought... |
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12/16/2007, 6:58 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
Glad I could help DI. 
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12/16/2007, 6:37 pm
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The Mooseman
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
Would be a nice Xmas present
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~ Quickly, I must hurry, for there go my people and I am their leader ~
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12/17/2007, 8:06 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
Or even a "just because" present.
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12/17/2007, 10:40 pm
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Joshin Josh
Registered: 11-2004
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
I just saw this.. lol. This would Rock 
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1/2/2008, 3:12 pm
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SKOKEY
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Location: Bennington, NH
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
I recently set up a new board for a friend and saw that the default skin is one of the CSS layout types. Luckily after being here for a couple years, I was able to figure something out without asking a bunch of questions. I couldn't figure out how to add a custom graphic banner in the space provided, so I made it as the Community Logo which showed up above the CSS layout and then I managed to deleted the box and text that was provided in the skin that I used.
For someone that is new to all this, the "edit layout/colors of your board" page that is provided won't customized all of the special effects that CSS can do.
I think you either have to provide a default skin that will edit with the "edit layout/colors of your board" or change that form to be able to edit the CSS layout. I can see new board owners getting very frustrated because the easy set-up page is becoming useless.
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1/2/2008, 5:44 pm
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
Would rock, Josh?  Don't you mean will rock? 
Skokey, I've considered the layout/colors screen to be useless for the most part since I first set up my board and started looking around its control panel, but that's because I've gotten into the habit of doing all my styling with CSS and would never write the type of code that the layout/colors screen creates.
Most of the default skins I've seen the code for leave a lot to be desired, but it's not for using too much CSS. It's fornot using it when it should be used, using old HTML like <center>, <b>, <u>, <i>, <font>, <div align="center">, inline CSS (CSS included within the HTML tag instead of in a style sheet where it belongs), redundant HTML and/or redundant CSS, and just sloppy code in general.
This isn't to disrespect the people who have put a lot of time and work into creating these skins. Some people can design but not code, others can code but not design. Some are good at doing both, but those are few and far between. Once in a while I have a good design idea, but those are a struggle and very rare for me, while writing code for a design feels more instinctual.
There is also a big difference between writing a program and writing layout code, and each division has its own sets of rules. So before anyone blames Thor, he is one man, and keeping up with the times on web standards would take time away from keeping up with the changing standards in programming.
With all these differences, it's no wonder most web design companies have at least one person to design, another person (or people) to program, and yet another person (or people) to write the layout code.
When someone with no previous coding experience starts up a board and tries to customize it, I think the biggest source of confusion comes from the fact that a lot of the skins use obsolete coding mixed in with whatever amount of correct coding the designers knew at that time (in short, it's a big confusing mess), and Runboard's underlying layout code was written much the same way. But Runboard began as Akheva back in 2003, a lot has changed by way of web standards in those four years, and the mixture you see is the result of the designer trying to use whatever "new" knowledge they had at the time, along with whatever outdated techniques they have known for years, either because they weren't aware of the "new" way of doing something, or because they simply didn't have the time to learn it all.
As I always tell people, don't ever try to teach yourself HTML or CSS by looking at Runboard's source code. Instead, check out W3Schools for up-to-date tutorials, and CSS Zen Garden is an excellent site for seeing CSS "only" design in action.
For anyone who wonders why I'm so strict about not using deprecated tags, here's just one out of a huge list of reasons:
HTML <center> tag
The center element was deprecated in HTML 4.01.
The center element is not supported in XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD.
I also try to stay consistent with it, to avoid confusing people more than they already are.
The skins are what they are, whether done in CSS or with tables and font and center tags, and luckily you all have me to help you sort things out.
As for the CSS-only design that Thor speaks of, board owners will still have the option of using the setup we currently have, which will give you more time to learn the proper way of coding things before browsers stop supporting the obsolete tags. In the meantime, I plan on rewriting many of the existing skins for people to use with the CSS designs myself as soon as I know the HTML it will have, and will try to make my re-codes as easy as possible for non-coders to work with.
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1/3/2008, 2:22 am
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Lesigner Girl
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
For anyone who may be skimming this far through the thread, I want this line to stand out:
Specific CSS rules to replace outdated HTML rules:
CSS for Deprecated HTML Attributes
This may help some old-school coders get more up to speed with current standards, regardless of whether it's their Runboard, a blog, or a website they want to clean up.
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1/3/2008, 2:38 am
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SKOKEY
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
So, could the default skin be set up so that it could be edited from the "edit layout/colors of your board"? Would it be impossible for the "edit layout/colors of your board" to edit all skins since each skin has it's own styling bits or are there commonalities among them?
I think the basic default design should be simple enough and with an easy to understand editing interface so that a beginner can feel like they can accomplish something on their own. Then as they learn their way around and want to get a little more fancy, they can ask for help without feeling like a total loser.
You can tell that some people come here reluctantly after hours of trying to do it on their own because the system is set up to make you believe that you can.
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1/3/2008, 3:32 am
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Pastor Rick
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Registered: 07-2005
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Re: CSS only based design in the works
Hi Skokey,
quote:
SKOKEY wrote:
I think you either have to provide a default skin that will edit with the "edit layout/colors of your board" or change that form to be able to edit the CSS layout. I can see new board owners getting very frustrated because the easy set-up page is becoming useless.
As I understand it the basic layout will be unaffected (i.e. the Edit Layout section will still work). Personally I think the "Tech Blue" skin is a poor choice as the default skin simply because the "new" board owner is expected to have some knowledge of HTML and CSS in order to make changes properly. IMHO the first thing a "new" board owner should do if they have no knowledge of how to work with HTML or CSS is change their theme to one of the following:
Clear Gray by Zeen
Rainy Day
Spouzic-art
Green and Dark
Blue
White and Orange
These are all very basic layouts using the Runboard default codes and zero graphics so there are no HTML or CSS in place to confuse the new board owner (I call this a clean foundation). These are the original layouts that the Edit Layout/colors of your board screen was designed to work with and you can actually do quite a bit from there. As a example you can take a look at Writers Symposium and you will see a skin created using this approach (please forgive the graphics, I have not cleaned them up yet). Yes there is CSS and HTML added but only to cover what isn't handled by the default Runboard codes...
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1/3/2008, 3:57 am
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